Growing up in a Christian family, I became a Christian at a young age. I attended church every Sunday and went to a private Christian school K-12th and then attended a Christian College. Bible classes were mandatory throughout my 16 years of education and combine that with church every Sunday, I was very confident in my knowledge of the Bible. However, like most Christians, I still had questions about God, but I accepted I was not going to understand everything and that I needed to just put my faith in Him.
After a few years of being out of school, I found a church I really enjoyed going to. It was a young church and had an incredible worship band. It was like going to a Christian Coldplay concert every Sunday. The music was so powerful it gave me chills, and would reconfirm any doubts I had about God because of how it made me feel.
A few months after discovering this church, I stumbled upon a debate between a Christian and an atheist on YouTube. I decided to watch it and remember thinking to myself, "this should be interesting; how is this atheist going to possibly debate God doesn't exist." I was excited to see how the Christian would tear apart the atheist arguments. However, this never happened, turned out the atheist made better arguments than the Christian. He mentioned verses in the Bible I had never heard of before and they clearly did not fit it with my knowledge of who God was. The verses were about God giving rules for slavery; I had never come across these verses in my many years of studying the Bible. These were damaging verses, if God was moral, how could he condone these actions?
(Here are just a few of those verses: Lev 25:44-46, Deut 20:10-15, 1 Cor 14:34, 1 Tim 2:9-15, Duet 22:23-24, Duet 22:28-29, Exodus 21:7-11)
I was really confused about what I had just witnessed, but thought to myself it must have been a fluke; maybe the Christian was not an experienced debater. I was torn, should I just mark it down as a fluke and forget about it, or should I continue watching more debates? If I continue to question this I may not like what I find, was I willing to accept the results even if it meant me discovering I was wrong? I realized I rather know the truth rather than believe what makes me feel good, and if Christianity is right than I will know more about God than I did before and it will only strengthen my relationship with Him going forward. So I decided to watch more debates along with researching the verses that atheist were bringing up.
During this process I discovered a cable access television show called the Atheist Experience, where anyone can call in to discuss or debate why they believe what they do whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc. Out of the hundreds of episodes I watched within a span of a few months, not once did I feel the theist caller won an argument. I had never thought about it before but I realized why there aren't Christian shows where viewers could call in to debate. If Christianity was correct, a show like that would help convert more to Christianity, but I realized it was because Christians didn't have valid reasons for their beliefs and when challenged they didn't have much to stand on. Christianity makes sense when the pastor can cherry pick the verses he preaches about and ignore those that are contradictory. It started to resemble more of a cult to me. Pastors I talked to seemed very interested in discussing these issues with me, however once we reached a certain point they were no longer available to continue the conversation. I realized I had to come to the conclusion that my beliefs were not valid.
Was I depressed after realizing that heaven was no longer in my future or that God was no longer going to be a part of my life? Yes, but only for a minute. Sixty seconds later, I realized I never had a chance to go to a place called heaven and God was never influencing my life in the first place. It was just an illusion. After realizing that, I was thankful I discovered this now so that I could live the rest of my life delusion free.
It was a hard but rewarding process of getting to the point where I knew my beliefs were false, but the hardest part was yet to come. I had many friends and family that were Christian and knowing what I did I didn't want them to continue living a delusion either, so I started telling them about the verses I had discovered and wanted to discuss the issues with them. I even wrote a 15 page paper on why I came to this conclusion to help get the conversations started. I thought they would be thankful I was exposing these issues and showing them that Christianity wasn't true. I was wrong! I didn't realized how emotionally attached people were to their beliefs; I was emotionally attached but I didn't let emotion overcome reason. I thought people followed their religion because they felt they had valid reasons for believing not because they were emotionally attached. I knew that not everyone I talked to about this would lose their faith, but I thought maybe a few would. Still to this day, no one has lost their faith due to me and that's fine. But I was amazed at how strong of a hold emotions have on people's beliefs, and realized this is how we can live in a world full of numerous religions yet everyone still claim theirs is correct. Discovering this was much harder for me than discovering that God didn't exist.
Losing my faith has made it awkward at times between friends and family, but I much rather live in reality than fantasy and this has made me a stronger person. I no longer pray for things to improve, I work to improve them myself. I see the world and life now for what it is and it is even more valuable to me now than before. I no longer see things as good and evil, but as rational and irrational. I wouldn't say I now follow atheism, as that makes it sound like atheism is its own religion; I actually don't like the word atheism because it means nothing and only describes what I'm not, not what I am. I am an atheist meaning I am not a theist and now free from religion and can make decisions for myself based on logic, reason, compassion etc. I am able to think for myself more now than I did before and for that I am very thankful.
Questions -
ReplyDeleteWhy do you refer to those that practice a religion as "emotional." Is the desire to stick with a faith an emotional response?
Do you believe that all who practice a religion can not think for themselves? You mentioned Christianity as being cultish, but do you distinguish between those that follow a faith for application in the world and those that follow a faith that disconnects them from the world?
Do you hold a view that all religion is bad for the world? Or is some religion that focuses a person or groups of people (perhaps otherwise indifferent or even formally involved in harmful behavior to themselves and others before finding religion) towards good works okay if that's thier cup of tea?
There are many reasons why I think emotions play a big role in religion. But the short answer is based on my experience; many people are not comfortable discussing the parts of their holy book that do not make sense or appear extremely immoral. This is because it makes them uncomfortable and that is due to an emotional response. If emotions had nothing to do with their faith, than they would be more willing to discuss these issues. I would love to discuss the Bible more with my family/friends but they always get uncomfortable and the only conclusion I can think of for this, is due to having a belief based on feelings rather than facts, logic, and reason. It is clear that humans are extremely emotional beings we do all kinds of crazy things due to our emotions, and this is why science works so well - it takes what we want to believe and our feelings out of the equation.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that all people who follow a religion cannot think for themselves. However, there are many cases where someone’s holy book trumps scientific knowledge, and this can be harmful and in many cases has held society back. I think faith is the worst thing someone can use to base their beliefs on. There are thousands of god’s that have existed and to believe in anyone of them it required faith. To suspend critical thinking in order to believe something is never a good idea. Some faiths can be more dangerous than others, but I think there is always some danger in believing something that is not based in reality.
If someone’s goal is good works, I don’t see why it has to be done through a religion. But if they are not forcing this belief/religion onto others, than I can respect that and don’t see it as a problem for society (but it is hard to not convince others of something if you believe it to be true).
If someone wants to do good things for society they would be more successful if they believed as many true things as possible and reduced their belief in things that are false. Just look at any successful company, if they want to be successful they must KNOW their customers and base decisions on reality and facts not what they want to be true.
Hope I answered your questions, please feel free to re-ask anything I might have missed or you want me to expand on.
Churches often do skip out on more controversial subjects. Many times people conform a god to their views that isn’t the God of the Bible, though might be similar. (Christians should probably read the Bible all the way through before committing to it as a faith.)
ReplyDeleteThe verses you give on slavery… The Bible presents Moses handing down laws that govern how people are to treat slaves, which protected them. (The previous story about Egypt enslaving Israel demonstrated laws were not always given to do so by other cultures...). The Bible states that no one is to be kidnapped and sold, and slave traders are presented as sinners. The concept of slavery was not introduced by God, but by Noah. In the same way that Moses permitted divorce to mitigate adultery, in similar fashion laws were introduced to mitigate treatment of a servant. The Bible states that God will give us to our sinful nature, or allow us to continue with it. He also works through it. In the story of Joseph, his brothers sold him into slavery, and it ended up working to save an entire region including Egypt. God respected Noah’s curse on Ham and his son Canaan. The concept of slavery would be turned on its head by Jesus. I don’t believe that God condones slavery, but not everything presented in the Bible is a reflection of the nature of God. It’s just that he knows who he is dealing with. The other side of the argument is that he condones slavery which goes against the image of God that most people have, because he allowed it to occur. Pastors tend to ignore this subject because it is controversial, and so naturally when a Christian comes across it, especially presented by a skeptic, it’s rather shocking. When you look at the overall Bible, we see a move from mitigating slavery in a stiff necked people to Jesus claiming those that wish to be first among you becoming slaves to others.
I have never heard anyone say, Noah created the concept of slavery. But if that was true, how could God have possibly said to Noah that he was the only righteous man on earth and I’m going to kill everyone on earth but save you? Doesn’t make much sense that the man who created slavery was righteous, but the whole Noah’s ark story doesn’t make much sense either. So no reason to believe any of that.
DeleteI’m not sure where you get the idea that “god” doesn’t condone slavery. Did you read the verses that were in the post? If not here is Deut 20:10-15:
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
If we are being logical, there are only two options we can conclude.
1) God is giving instructions on slavery and murder. (not to mention it appears he is also giving them permission to rape the women, but for the sake of this argument we will just stick to the slavery and murder because that is clear)
2) It was not god giving these instructions, but men who were intolerant of cultures different than their own and pretended to get these instructions from god in order to justify to others these actions were acceptable.
I think it is more likely that option 2 is the reality. Considering we live in an age where we can know what is going on all around the world and learn about other cultures from the comfort of our homes. Yet there are billions of people who still fear what they don’t know. Now put yourself in the place of people 5,000 years ago, the fear people must have had toward cultures they knew very little about would have been 100x’s greater.
Yes. God did instruct Israel to use nations as forced labor as part of peace treaties negotiated before attacking a city as they were claiming the promise land. (Which would have cut back on war.) They still had to abide by the rules given in treating slaves. The people that this involved were not innocent of breaking Gods laws, and worshiped false idols. The conquering of that region was the gift of the promise land, demonstrating the power of God and the greatness of Israel, and a rebuke of nations that did not follow God. This doesn't mean that God dealt the same way with every culture that had turned from him. God is constistant in his love, justness, and punishment for the unjust even if his methods and patience varies.... Israel itself had been slaves, would be again, nearly destroyed, and scattered from the promise land, and would be repeatedly victims of persecution for their heritage. They also did not escape Gods justice, but as the chosen people to bring about blessings to all nations promised to Abraham, they certainly recieved much more patience. Since the teachings of Jesus and the new covenant, God is no longer permissive of slavery. If you follow his example in Christ, you are encouraged to become slaves of one another. Slavery was not part of Gods original intention for humans.... This is not meant as a contradiction, but a demonstration of growth in repentance and salvation.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, thank you for the answers. They were helpful in understanding some of your views, though after thinking about your third answer... how do you feel about the positive affect that joining a church has on someone who has made a lot of bad decisions and had a lot of hardships, and that somehow sparked a turn around in thier life? I've seen this, and I'm not sure that some would be able to pull that off without faith in a greater power. In some cases, sheer emotionless evidence doesn't quite have the same result as an intangible spirituality.
It seems that you believe god is a consequentialist where he basically thinks “the ends justify the means”. I don’t recall any of my pastors talking about that in church. I just don’t see how anyone can really believe this was controlled by god. It seems completely immoral to think a god who can do anything he wants, would use men to slaughter other nations just so they could have their “promise land”. If I were god, I would have just sent plagues to these nations who are occupying some elses land, maybe not give them rain or something to where they had to move someplace else. I wouldn’t have had “my people” (though I wouldn’t pick favorites in the first place) go murder another nations men and then give instructions for keeping the women and children for themselves. Why would the children that my people have now captured wanted to worship a god who gave instructions to kill their fathers and are now in slavery? I would be a monster if I thought that was the best thing to do! What kind of lesson would I be teaching my own favorite people?
DeleteChristians think of themselves as god’s children and I don’t have kids, but if I did I certainly wouldn’t give them instructions for how to steal things or how to be a bully. And isn’t that what this “god” is really doing here? I don’t see how anyone can see this as moral, and I know that if a Christian were to see this in the Quran, they would use it against Muslim’s to prove to them their god was not moral and in fact a god who is evil. If people were to really think about it, aren’t they really just defending something because they want it to be true. A moral god would have been able to see the future and think to himself, I can’t expect good people to believe I’m moral and put their trust/faith in me if this is the kind of behavior I condone.
Have you ever thought about these stories from the other nations perspective? First off, the winners in history get to write history, so of course Israel is going to paint themselves as being right and these other nations as evil making it look like they were doing the world a favor. But if a god doesn’t exist, and all societies have created their own god to explain the world, such as where does rain come from, why is there lightening, and why does the sun comes up every day etc. These nations that where worshipping other gods/idols where just doing the same thing Israel was, except their imaginary god wasn’t telling them to go kill everyone else. So of course these other nations aren’t going to follow Israel’s god.
To answer your last question, “how do you feel about the positive affect that joining a church has on someone who has made a lot of bad decisions and had a lot of hardships, and that somehow sparked a turn around in their life?” - Sure this has happened many times, but it doesn’t just happen in Christianity, it happens for people who become Muslim, Mormon, Buddhist, etc. So that doesn’t have anything to do with it being true. I think it just covers up whatever real issues a person is facing, basically like taking a Xanax to calm their nerves or just cover up their problems. Actually, check out my post called “Religion – the most powerful drug ever created” It’s on the sidebar under Popular Post. I think that will answer your question best.
Hope that helps, and hope you haven’t taken offense to anything I’ve said.
No offense taken at all. I think you make logical arguements. Doesn't mean that I agree... but studying scripture means questioning them. I'll check out your post on religion being a drug.
ReplyDeletei hope you realize that this test of your faith you failed miserably. the test was to show you through nonaction and lack of foundation, you fell to the wayside through DOUBT. i hope you understand there will always be more bible passages you werent made abreast of and that another one will crop up and devastate you further. The point is that its not about whaT YOU can prove. The religion can be a drug like anything can. As fallible human beings are, lets discuss the fact that all we are is "habit" as beings and mostly bad habits at that. only a good habit can replace a bad one too. The fallacy in your atheism lies in the fact that you doubt the truth regardless of what it is. doubt is poison to the soul and and that is all. Philosophical disagreements will land you in the quagmires of darkness and i don t want to see that happen to ya. please know i just want you to see that science only explains what it doesnt know. And you are right to doubt religion. It is just a methodology to get closer to the immortal spirit within and only serves as a guide. But i seriously caution you to reconsider your belief in God! dont get left behind the eight ball in the most important time of our ages. Please know that there is a lot more to the story and without that information you could be making a HUGE MISTAKE. Please get back to me and i will privately discuss with you if you like the ins and outs of this whole "reason to believe" thing. okay? God Bless and know that the church of God isnt the brick and mortar of the building, but yet it is the FELLOWSHIP amongst mankind and an earnest desire to GOOD not BAD. The Agnostics AND the canonized books need to be discussed. The Accadians and Sumerians MUST be discussed and MUCH more. Please get back to me at rosecrucian96@gmail.com joe kahn is my name.
ReplyDeleteI’m going to respond to your comment on here and if you want to reply you can email me at discoveringreason@gmail.com if you don’t want it to be public.
ReplyDeleteTo say I failed some test is ridiculous, Bertrand Russell said, “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.” I want to live in a world where it is encouraged to doubt, when doubt becomes a bad thing you end up with fundamentalist who fly planes into buildings because they are so certain they are right. Without doubt, we would still think the earth is flat and that the sun orbits the earth. Without doubt, you would still believe in Zeus or Thor or any of the other ancient gods.
You said, “i just want you to see that science only explains what it doesn’t know.” I think you are confusing science with religion or maybe it was a typo, I’m not sure. But I’m not willing to live my life sacrificing reason just to believe something that is comforting or reassuring. I care about what is true no matter how it makes me feel.
I’m willing to discuss this more with you, but know that I will be asking for evidence for why you believe what you do and faith is meaningless to me. Because faith is something people use when they lack evidence for their belief and has nothing to do with discovering the truth. Look forward to hearing from you Joe.
Belief and faith are the virtually the same things. You have a girlfriend? Do you not trust her til you have concrete evidence she is being upfront and honest with you? Or do you have a tricky play on words for that too? The fact is, you dont rightly know what to think, so you conveniently and very normally as humans are, decided to reject any and all principless you cannot see, feel, taste, touch, or grasp. I feel for you though. The enlightenment of these new facts that have derailed your whole perception of reality have blinded you from the TRUTH.
ReplyDeleteI see why you would say belief and faith is the same thing. But you can either have evidence for a belief or no evidence for a belief, and when one doesn’t have good evidence for a belief it is called faith. I don’t think it matters so much what people believe, what matters is why they believe it.
ReplyDeleteSo if by “tricky play on words” you mean a reasonable and logical argument than yes I do have one for you. With the girlfriend example, I don’t automatically trust or distrust a girl I’m dating. I stay neutral and that’s what the dating process is about. The longer we are together without her lying the more I trust her. If I where to find that she starts contradicting herself and I catch her in lies, than I lose trust. I think that is basically how all relationships work whether it is someone we are dating or just friends.
When I had a relationship with “God” and I wanted to learn more about him, I discovered he was contradicting himself often. And for someone who is supposed to be prefect and not contradicting that was a red flag for me so I studied it more. I realized that god didn’t create man, man created god and when you look at verses such as:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Or
1 Corinthians 14:34 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
You can see that men created these laws, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out this didn’t come from a god.
If you believe things just because you want to believe them, then I really feel for you as well. I’ll give you a little advice though, if you ever get an email from a Nigerian price with good financial news – Don’t believe him!
So my question to you would be, why do you choose to believe in the God you do and not any of the other thousands that have existed? Using your logic, just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean you shouldn’t believe.
http://youtu.be/GtO-7xN26ME
ReplyDeleteThis will help you understand the history of Biblical translation.
I also encourage you to look into a man named Walter Veith. He has done some amazing research.
My prayers are with you and I hope that you continue your quest as I in mine. My quest led me to question all that I knew to be true and as a result I nearly lost my faith. If it were not for the continuation and diligence in uncovering as to where we have all been led astray. Your problem is not with God it is with Rome.
I did read your story and No , either a person is Born a again or he is NOT!!!!..It seems pretty clear you were never a Christian , only in name and went to a Christian Church and raised in a Christian family - Same as me ! at 18 yrs old I went to the alter to be saved prompted by my new girlfriend's(later my wife)..sisterI did everything I knew to do (no one told me what being saved was or how -Accepting Jesus as savior ) I tried to be good like I thought a Christian should . 7 years later the night my daughter was born , my mother -in-law and I were talking about , if I was saved or not and told me what it meant and quoted Romans 10 : 9 ,10. and said you did that..I didn't tell her , but thought to myself .."no, I didn't " a few days later I watched Billy Graham and heard how to be born again , and I asked Jesus to be my savior. no big deal.. felt no different then. but a few weeks later I was in church , and the song leader said , if any one here is not saved , they need to be in the alter.. I suddenly , felt such pressure ,( it is called conviction by the Holy Spirit) I still didn't know I was saved.so told GOD if I am not saved ,keep the pressure on and I will go to the alter,, WOW! all of a suddenly the pressure dropped from me .likie a ton lifted from my shoulders. I never made it to the alter , I was born again and I KNEW it.. So, I was Baptisted for the second time ,later (in the middle of feb in a river ,blowing snow , at my request. -) ... I was 25 at that time..((((((((.BUT at 21 yrs I started reading "Chariot s of the gods" and other simular books - about alien beings coming to earth. I almost became an Atheist... even talked to my sister how being a Christian was silly and that Jesus wasn't born to a virgin. Later thinking about there probally is no god.. So, as I walked up the steps I looked into the sky and said , "GOD if you are real let me know it" The very next day my life was turned upside down... the results of my sinful life took over my life.))))))) And I know that proves nothing to you , but , I never doubted GOD again..threw all the books away. Still it was 4 yrs later before I was born again... I wll say the people who tried to explain the TRUTH to you I 100% agree with..and the things you "Cherry picked" out of the bible , as they told you , proves your unwillingness to change your mind in the faced of reason . All science proves to me is just how GREAT GOD is ..NOT that he doesn't exist !!! 35 yrs now after being born again I have had ups and down..but always growing in Grace and in the Knowledge of GOD ;o)
ReplyDeleteI would really like to know how you have determined that I was never a Christian. That seems extremely convenient how you have made that conclusion. Even if that were the case, I don’t see how that proves Christianity correct. Are you saying a wasn't a Christian because I wasn't completely brainwashed and was still willing to ask questions even if it meant admitting that what I have believed for so many years was false? It makes no difference whether I was ever a “true” Christian; all that matters is whether the belief is correct. So what evidence do you have other than constantly trying to convince yourself that your God is real until you finally accomplished brainwashing yourself?
DeleteTell me what is the flaw in my logic when I point out verses in the Bible that are immoral or contradicting when the book claims to be inspired by the creator of the universe who is supposed to be perfect and a moral guide? It seems like you have extremely low standards for what you think a moral god would be.
I’ll give you this challenge to make it easy for you, give me one verse from the Bible that couldn't have been written simply from the knowledge of a man living in the time it was written. And if you can’t, what reason do you have to believe that the Bible was inspired by a god who created the universe?
haha !,Not convenient at all,(once a person is born again it is For ever) And I said it "SEEMS" clear you never were a Christian - not definite. You have to be born again to be a Christian - I wasn't a Christian until age 25 , when I was born again, by the Holy Spirit.I hope in your case you were born again, the bible does say a person can forget he was made a new man . I told you how I thought I was saved , but wasn't and there was no change in me... BUT, when I was born again.. I understand things of the Bible and I never turned back. I did make the mistake of thinking I might not be saved , when I discovered I still did things I knew are wrong and was gonna quit going to church because , I was just tired of trying to be perfect. But there was another spiritual awaking ... GOD loves me ,anyway.Salvation is by faith alone . not by works(good deeds)I believe you ARE brainwashed now . By believing the atheist..is my conclusion. there is nothing I have heard them say that proves the bible isn't true.
ReplyDeleteThere are flaws in translation of the bible..but going back to the original language it was written in , there are NO contradictions in the Bible. Because GOD inspired the writers of the bible to tell truth of how evil men are , does NOT mean he he approves of it. HE doesn't !The rape thing you brought up and your lack of understanding GOD and what the bible is really all about - I sense you have blinder on...you never understood the bible , so it was easy for seemily intelligent Atheist to blind you... Demons are very smart with desception .. and they are helping Atheist believe just like they want to believe.I have evil thoughts sometimes... like ." pull over into the coming car" ,They know I am born again and want me gone. But I know the thought is not mine .. and immediately think of something else.
Bible Prophsey proves the Bible is inspired by GOD. A man could not have known what would happen thousands of years later , and written it without being inspired by GOD. That is the reason I Believe the Bible is the inspired word of GOD.. OK I will make things easy for you. Tell me how a man knew nearly 2000 years ago the Jews would be scattered all over the world after losing their home country (70 AD).. then come back and Isreal become their Land again in 1948??? And it just happens to be the promised land promised to Abraham and his descendants (Jews)
Well when you put “seems CLEAR” do you not understand what clear means? It really doesn't matter, I don’t care to talk about whether I was a “true” or “born again” Christian, all that matters is what evidence do you have to show it is correct?
ReplyDeleteYou said no one has been able to prove the Bible isn't true, but no one has proved the Quran or the Bhagavad Gita isn't true either. So do you also believe these are correct? It doesn't matter if something hasn't been proved false, what matters is does the evidence support it and can it be demonstrated.
Where in the Bible does it say this prophecy so I can read it? I’m not saying this isn't a prophecy in the Bible, I just want to read it so I can better understand what it was foretelling. But you can find all races scattered around the world, not that big of a prophecy and I doubt it gave dates for when this would happen which prophecies need or else anything could eventually become a prophecy.
But you claim I cherry pick verses, aren't you doing the same when you ignore the prophecies that haven’t come true such as in Matthew 16:27–28 where Jesus tells his disciples that some of them won’t die because he will return in their lifetime?
If I find “prophecies” equal to the one you mention that have also come true in other holy books are you going to believe that book is written by a god too?
When you start evoking demons as things trying to fool you with logic and reason, than I have a hard time believing we can have an honest conversation. Hopefully this isn't going to be the case.
But I got to tell you it scares me that you say you have thoughts of driving your car into other lanes, you might want to seek some real help for that before you hurt someone.
Do you NOT know what "seems" means ??? being childish aren't you ?If you were never born again.. you NEVER were a Christian and spiritually blind... Takes away your claim of being a Christian before becoming an Atheist ;o)99% truth with even 1% lie -is still 100% lie .
ReplyDeleteI said no Atheist has proven the bible wrong ..you just dodged the statement ;o)
Bible prophesy of the jews:
http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/Articles/1948PropheciesFulfilled.htm
Matthew 16:27–28 .. Jesus is talking about the judgement of Jews in 70AD ... they were attacked and scattered all over the world until 1948. Jesus Kingdom is the Church( not a building - Christians) that started at penticost; after Jesus went to Heaven. Also , Saul (changed to Paul) met the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus "In all his Glory - not as a man as he was before being crucified"..so bright Paul was blinded.
I believe the Bible and GOD.. the bible talks about Satan and his demon . You asked for the challenge,.. I have to be honest and won't leave out my side just for your benefit , haha ..
, ..after re-reading our little battle of the minds... I see you trying to draw me into your game ,dismissing my statements with I don't want to talk about that, what does that matter - then get right into your game of wits.. using your own words " I have a hard time believing we can have an honest conversation."
ReplyDeleteWell obviously I don’t think anyone is a “true” Christian since I don’t believe that Christianity is true. So it is pointless to discuss whether I was a true Christian or not. But I guarantee I was as much of a Christian as you think you are today.
DeleteI didn't dodge your statement that no atheist has proved the bible incorrect. I think I answered it pretty clearly actually. Claims like the Bible which are not falsifiable cannot be proven incorrect, which is why all holy books have not been proven incorrect. It is up to those making the claim that it is correct to prove it.
If asking you for evidence is your idea of me trying to trick you, then I think I’m right - I don’t have much hope that we will get anywhere in this conversation. If you don’t value evidence and think that reason is the tool of demons, then having a reasonable conversation will have no effect on your beliefs.
Why would a moral God command people to do evil? Here are some possible answers to the question:
Delete1. In the Garden of Eden, there was no slavery and in heaven there will be no slavery, so God’s perfect plan is for no one to be enslaved. However, since sin entered the world, many horrible things exist (i.e war, slavery, jealously, etc). God deals with these horrors in the context of a sin filled world. Sometimes, the lesser of two evils (killing the enemy who wants to kill you) is the only good that can be found in a situation. But, God’s perfect plan is one of life and respect for every person. Thus, when God commands “Do not murder,” it is an ideal (based on the nature of God and His perfect plan) that does not apply to wartime (a situation that results from living in a sinful world).
2. Whatever God does, by definition, is good. So, if God commands killing, rape, and slavery it is for the greater good. Who are we as created beings to question His divine command? The problem with this view is that it changes the definition of “good” and makes the concept unrecognizable.
3. God did not really command killing, rape, and slavery. For example, in Numbers 31:7, God commands Moses to war against the Midianites, but it is Moses who commands the killing in Numbers 31:15-18. So these evil actions are to be blamed on Moses (an imperfect human) rather then God. Perhaps Moses handled it differently then God wanted it handled. In similar fashion, the instructions to take unwilling women as wives in Judges 21:10-24 did not come from God. The Bible simply records history; the good, the bad, and the ugly. The fact that the Bible records David’s adultery does not mean that God approves of David’s adultery.
4. The command that God gave has to be understood within the context of the text. The Old Testament reveals God’s judgment and justice, the New Testament reveals God’s mercy and love. God is both just and merciful. God has every right to kill every human being for our sinful behavior so if God kills in the Old Testament, He has every legal right to do so and be fully justified in His actions. God’s love and compassion revealed in the New Testament in no way negates His right for justice and judgment.
5. The command that God gave has to be understood within the context of the society. For example, in warfare horrible things happen. In order to protect the Israelites, other warring nations had to be eliminated, thus the command to kill all the men. But, at the same time, what should be done with the innocent civilians? The command to marry the young women would be considered rape by today’s standards but in the context of ancient society this would be the humane thing to do to guarantee the care and protection of these young ladies.
Instructions concerning the treatment of slaves (Lev 25: 44-46) must be understood in the context of the culture. Slavery was prevalent in all the surrounding countries. The Bible consistently gives instructions to treat slaves humanely. Since it was impossible to eradicate slavery, God choose to improve the slave’s situation.
6. Atheists have no ability to judge right and wrong anyway. They have no moral foundation to judge whether an action is right or wrong. If evolution is true, we are simply animals and my actions are beneficial as long as they benefit me. Thus, if I can get away with it and it benefits me; rape, murder, and slavery are all acceptable actions. What gives atheists the right to shake their fingers at a god they do not believe exists? The very concept of right and wrong in the West is dependent upon the Bible. For thousands of years, the Ten Commandments have been the foundation of the Western legal system. You can’t use Biblical morality to say that God is not moral.
7. The answer that you propose is another possible answer. Perhaps the Bible was written by men to justify actions in their own times. As a Christian, I reject that answer so I’m going to go with one of the other possible explanations for these verses.
If you are trying to be intellectually honest, it doesn’t really work that way – Christians (or anyone defending a claim/position) don’t get to come up with a variety of explanations and then say “one of those might be right.” Either one claims to know why God commanded these acts or they don’t, and if they don’t - the honest thing to say is, “I don’t know”.
DeleteAs someone who values reason and logic I reject explanations 1-6. There is a lot wrong with these explanations - if you’d like me to take the time to explain why, I’d be happy to (and preferably would like for you to choose the explanation you think is true and I respond to that), but it’s not really fair to throw out 6 different explanations and expect others to prove them wrong.
If you care about what is true, then rejecting explanation 7 just because you are a Christian is not a good reason to reject it. Just as it would not be a good reason for a Muslim to reject the claim made by Christianity that Jesus is the son of god just because they are a Muslim. Yet, this is exactly what you are doing by rejecting number 7 on the basis that you are a Christian.