This is a conversation that I found pretty remarkable on the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) Facebook page. I wasn't surprised by the comments of the Christians as I
have had my share of these discussions, but for a rational Christian I think
this might be eye-opening.
To conceal the identity of those in the discussion, I will
refer to the Christians as Pastor (since he is a Pastor) and Why?Outreach
(since that is the name of the FB page) and to the atheist as just atheist.
There is one other person who makes a small contribution later in the
discussion that I will refer to as “other” (because I was a big fan of LOST)
which has nothing to do with this at all!
(Warning: There are a few spelling errors that were not
corrected due to irony)
The conversation starts with this post by the Pastor.
The atheist's argument against God is that "IF"
there is a God, He is not a good God due to all the murdering of innocent
people. Innocent? Really? IF, one reads the accounts of cities of peoples who
God "murdered", one can easily see that these people were anything
but innocent. Remember what your father told you as a child when you blatantly
disrespected and disobeyed, "I brought you into this world, I'll take you
out". So it is for God. He created us, only He, can take us out. And just
as your father, it will not be unjustifiably.
WHY?Outreach) If the premise of an argument is flawed (ie
humans are innocent) then of course the conclusion will be erroneous.
Atheist) But I thought you believe God gives us free will?
By him killing them he is sending them to "hell" and he is taking
away their chance of repenting and becoming "saved". You would think
a moral god would try and give them as much time as possible to avoid the hell
he created for the children he loves so much.
WHY?Outreach) An
omniscient God would also know ahead of time whether or not they would repent
or not- this is very simple when you think about it...and it is noted that you
evaded directly addressing the points Pastor raised.
Atheist) So then I take it you don't pray? Because an
omniscient God would already know what you would be praying for and he would
already know what is going to happen so praying wouldn't make any sense, right?
What points did I evade addressing? I'll be more than happy
to address them if you let me know what you’re talking about. Thanks.
Pastor) atheist, this is another case of you not knowing the
Bible! What did God do when Moses asked Him not to send him to face Pharaoh? Oh
and Why?Outreach, atheist has no choice but to evade my questions.
Atheist) Pastor, this is not a case of me not knowing the
Bible. This is you all getting stuck when cornered on your beliefs. Instead of
using this argument "I don't know the Bible", why don't you address
my point about prayer? If Outreach is going to say God already knows what is
going to happen and has a plan, than why is it necessary to pray?
And like I said, if you tell me what question I evaded I'll
be happy to answer it.
Pastor) And yet another one asking a theological question
with little to no biblcial education. You can't know how to build a model car
if you don't first read the directions. STUDY! LEARN!
Pastor) What ever makes you fell good atheist. The fact is
that you have repeatedly misuded scripture to prove a point and yet you have no
idea how you did it.
Tell me atheist, what was the significance of the blood on
the door posts in the passover story? You have 1 minute to reply or I will know
that you googled it. IF you know, you will need no more time than that.
Pastor) Time is up atheist. And please don't give the old
tired excuse, I was away from my computer crap. You saw what I posted. You just
couldn't answer it.
Pastor) Notice how atheist claims to know the Bible but runs
away to another thread when asked a simple bible question. LOL!
Atheist) Pastor, I'm sorry I didn't see your trivia question.
I was responding to a comment you had made earlier on a different thread. I
don't get alerts saying you have responded I have to go back to a thread to see
if you have responded.
Quick Bible question, What must a man do if he is caught in
the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged? You have one minute, or I
will know you googled it :)
Pastor) Hahahahahahahahahahahaha You were NOT! hahahahah I
was here and saw everywhere you commented. LOL!!!!!!!!!!
I told you that you would use some lame excuse.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!
You are a very funny man atheist. You do everything you can
to get out of answering a question then you expect me to answer yours.
LOL!!!!!!
atheist, go read the Bible. And stop googling questions in
hopes of finding one that I can't answer. HAahahahahah ! Pitiful!
Atheist) Pastor, I'm not lying, anyone can scroll down and
see that a responded to a couple other threads, or you or someone else blocked
my comment I don't know. I have read the Bible from front to back 2 times. This
is not including all the bible studies I did when growing up.
BTW, the answer is he must pay her father 50 pieces of
silver, and then marry her. Lucky her right! She has to live with the guy who
raped her for the rest of her life and he is not allowed to divorce her. Got to
love biblical morals!
Have a good day Pastor!
Pastor) Oh atheist, no one blocked anything and I knew the
answer atheist. I am a pastor. I am quite "familiar" with the Bible.
I will even venture to guess that I understand it better than you. Not because I
am a pastor, but because of the way you have used the scriptures and how you
have misunderstood the entire concept of context.
Also, your last comment >> Got to love biblical
morals!<<
Only proves my point. You do not have the slightest
inclination of what this verse is talking about or the ones before or after it.
Got to love ignorance.
Have a great day atheist!
Atheist) Well please, enlighten us with what the verse
really means then. BTW, it is Deuteronomy 22:28-29 for anyone who wants to go
read the whole chapter to make sure it is in context.
Pastor) Good grief atheist. You really are that slow! We're
not talking about any particular verse. We're talking about using scripture in
context. My GOSH ATHEIST. You are mind numbing!!!
Atheist) Well, since you said I don't know what the verse is
talking about it must mean you do. So I'd love to know what you think it is
talking about. But I understand if you want to dodge the question.
Pastor) atheist, you have completely exhausted my patience.
I can only imagine what your teachers had to endure. I pity them.
Atheist) Actually, I didn't ask many questions in school, I
believed my teachers knew what they were talking about and since I was
indoctrinated at such an early age to believe in God and the Bible I never
really questioned in much.
But I'm sorry my question has you stumped. Maybe it was not
god who came up with the law saying a rapist must marry the girl he raped. The
logical explanation is that it was ancient men claiming to speak for a god they
made up and that is why it is so immoral.
Pastor) atheist, I'm sorry, but you're just a moron. I mean
come on. I have debated with atheists who actually were quite intellegent and
provided a challenging fight, but you, well, you're just, well. Ignorant.
Sorry, but I just don't know what else to say. It's like the lights are on, but
no one is home.
Other) Ad Hominem
Pastor) No other, don't cry for your boyfriend yet. If
someone shows no intelligence what so ever, then the we must look to the
dictionary. And moron is what we find.
Atheist) other, you are exactly right. When they have no
response to an argument people usually just resort to name calling. It is
ironic that Pastor wants to quiz me on the Bible but when he is asks a question
he refuses to answer. If he had a good response he would be quick to make it
rather than look foolish and just call me a moron.
WHY?Outreach) atheist, there is a huge distinction between
applying a label which is accurate- if unflattering- and name calling/mockery
as a substitute for addressing the evidence ..which is demonstrably the most
common modus operandi of the 'atheist'.
Pastor) They're either lovers or the same person. They
appear and disappear at the same time.
WHY?Outreach) It's too early to draw conclusions, but
something is suspicious there.
Atheist) Haha, I can assure you we are not the same person
haha. It's funny that because someone agrees with an atheist on this page you
think they must be the same person :)
Atheist) But WHY?Outreach, if Pastor doesn't want to answer
the question I asked will you? The question is, will you explain what
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 really means? Since Pastor thinks I am misunderstanding
it. Thanks.
Pastor) atheist, I never said you misunderstood it. This is
just another case of your ignorance. You have no clue about anything. Your just
plain stupid! I have tried to explain things to you over and over and over but
it just won't sink in. Outreach, if you get sucked into this guys/girls vortex,
you may never get out. Run while you can.
Atheist) Pastor, I said that the Bible says, if a man rapes
a virgin who is not married, he has to pay the father and he must marry her and
he cannot divorce her.
I said this because Deuteronomy 22:28-29 says, "If a
man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and
they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must
marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as
long as he lives."
Then you said, "I am a pastor. I am quite
"familiar" with the Bible. I will even venture to guess that I
understand it better than you. Not because I am a pastor, but because of the
way you have used the scriptures and how you have MISUNDERSTOOD the entire
concept of context."
So you understand it better than me but you won't tell me
what the verse is really saying?
Pastor) And I won't atheist. I won't cast pearls before
swine.
I felt the need to copy and post this discussion because I find
it extremely interesting how someone who believes their religion to be true can
continue to say someone is taking their scripture out of context, while at the
same time refusing to put it into context so that is can be properly
understood.
Of course, I believe the atheist was being perfectly
rational quoting a Bible verse and thinking it means what is says. If it meant
something else it would have said something else right? It is interesting that
the only verses Christians say are taken out of context are the ones that
appear immoral and all the others are allowed to be taken at face value.
I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on this,
so if you have a comment please leave one!