Some think that atheism is its own religion, and that
atheists are just as guilty of having faith or dogmatic beliefs as those who
are religious. But those who make these statements understand that they can’t
prove that their god or religion is true so they say atheism is no different
and therefore we are on equal ground. Religious people often confuse an atheist’s
passion for reality with a passion for atheism which is why they make this
claim.
Religious people are proud and passionate about their
beliefs, and atheists can be passionate as well but they are not passionate about
atheism itself. They are passionate about reality and often proud that they
have overcome the brainwashing and indoctrination they endured as a child.
I’m not passionate about atheism; I’m passionate about
helping others get unshackled from mind controlling religions and living a life
that attempts to understand reality to the best of our understanding. If a
religion could demonstrate that their beliefs were a reality, I would accept
that religion/god to be true, but we need to follow the evidence.
Religious people say they don’t want help (and I believe them), but those addicted
to drugs say the same thing, and we all know they will live a more productive
and happy life when off drugs - the same goes for those who are religious. I
have never heard of anyone who has lost faith in their religion and is now an
atheist who didn't appreciate their new perspective of the world and their place in it, and most have
a better appreciation for life and the life of others (but even if this weren't the case - it wouldn't make their religion
anymore valid).
Atheism is simply the label that separates us from those who
are religious; it is nothing more than that.
but we need to follow the evidence."
ReplyDeleteThat's rich, coming from an atheist.
When an atheist brings h/her presupposition (no God – material universe only) to the evidence, it doesn't fit. The evidence says:
. Matter cannot create itself
. Matter cannot preexist itself
. Matter cannot be eternal nor infinite
The evidence does not support a material only universe.
When I bring my presupposition (a Creator of the universe exists outside of time and matter) to the evidence, it does fit. The evidence says:
. Everything material that begins to exist has come into existence because of an external cause.
. Matter is not eternal
. An infinite regress of cause does not exist
. Matter requires an eternal immaterial Creator
Observation, testing and verification support this evidence.
When I find atheists trying to refute science (eg. Laws of causation, life only comes from life, etc.) in order to support their world-view, I know I'm not going to get anywhere talking evidence. When I find atheists changing the definition of words (nothing is actually something, atheism is just a non belief therefore I don't need proof), so as not to conflict with their world-view, I know I'm not going to get anywhere talking evidence.
Every atheist I've ever encountered says, "I'm an atheist because I don't believe what you believe." Wouldn't you think that these people who call themselves scientifically minded people rather say, "I'm an atheist / materialist because here is the evidence that this is a material universe only."?
Of course atheists can't say this because the evidence goes against a materialist world-view.
Thanks for your comment. However, in the many years of me attending church I have never heard a pastor give that reason for believing in a god, it’s only from those who want to justify their belief for a god when their holy book fails.
DeleteIf people want to believe there is a creator that’s fine, but when they start to claim that they know what that creator wants us to eat, how we should vote, how to act, what to wear, who we should go to war with, etc. then it becomes a problem. Because if you haven’t noticed, whenever people claim to be acting in the will of their god it always matches up with their own personal desires (strange how those who claim to worship the same god can get conflicting messages).
Hey Thesauros, one thing to consider is that the word "atheist/ism" is a very generic umbrella term that refers specifically to a lack of belief in God(s) or a positive belief that no God(s) exist(s). Any particular way an atheist you know thinks or does things may not be the same as other atheists. Much like you probably wouldn't want to be grouped in the same boat as, let us say, Westboro Baptist Church.
DeleteThe "atheist" presuppositions you list are neither strictly atheist nor presuppositions. Neither are they entirely accurate. For example, when you say matter, you should be saying matter and energy. They sound mostly right, matter cannot cause itself to exist, but under certain circumstances matter and energy can cause other matter and energy to change forms. So a particular bunch of matter or energy can enter a different state of matter or energy, thus newly existing in a different form. (Perhaps that's just a semantics thing though.) Where the first matter/energy came from is currently indeterminable. One possible explanation is that a powerful being willed it to exist. I don't accept this because we are still left with the question of where this being came from. If one's explanation of that is that it always existed, then why not save a step and just say matter/energy always existed, though maybe in a different state? Or perhaps something outside our normal sense of existence did create matter, however, whether it is intelligent, sentient, or had any recognizable purpose is, again, indeterminable. Further, these aren't presuppositions because these are the product direct observation of the universe by scientists, theist and atheist alike, with the intention of drawing rules about the universe without presuppositions.
Good day gentlemen! Hope you're having a good one.
ReplyDelete“I have never heard a pastor give that reason for believing in a god,”
Yes, and? There's no need for Pastor's to mention this evidence because we who are followers of Jesus know about the existence of God the same way that atheists know He exists – through the evidence of the universe.
“Because that which is know about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.” Romans 1:9
That's why no one is without excuse for denying His existence. Unfortunately atheists will spend the rest of their lives trying to refute what their logic, reason and science tells them is true.
It makes me ask myself, what kind of a person would view the evidence, ALL of which tells us that this is NOT a material universe only, and then say to themselves, “Well, I'm going to believe in materialism anyhow.”
Who would do that?
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“if you haven’t noticed, whenever people claim to be acting in the will of their god it always matches up with their own personal desires:
You mean desires like,
. Love your enemies,
. Do good to those who hate you,
. Pray for those who persecute you.
You mean those kind of desires? 'Cause I gotta tell you, I don't have those kind of desires. Or do you mean,
. Blessed are the poor in spirit.
. Blessed are the meek
. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness
. Blessed are the merciful
. Blessed are the peacemakers
. You’ve heard it said that you shouldn’t murder but I’m telling you to not even be angry.
Those kind of desires? Or these?
. Treat women with respect instead of just sexual objects
. You have heard it said and eye for an eye, but I tell you, don’t resist an evil person.
. Turn the other cheek
Don’t forgive the person who sins against you only seven times, but every time.
. Love your neighbour as you already love yourself
. Whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant and whoever wants to be first must be your slave - just as I did not come to be served but to serve and to give my life as a ransom for many.
. Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honour your father and mother.
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even pagans love those who love them back. And if you do good to those who are good to you what credit is that to you? Even pagans do that. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful.
I could probably fill a few pages with this stuff but is that what you're talking about? Because I only attained those desires AFTER I became a follower of Jesus.
Or when you say we create God in our own image, do you mean:
[The Christian God is] “Arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynist, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
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“Any particular way an atheist you know thinks or does things may not be the same as other atheists”
I don't dispute that. All I said is that every atheist that I've interacted with says, “I'm an atheist because I don't believe what Christians believe.” Are you an exception? Do you have scientific proof that this is a material universe only?
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“Where the first matter/energy came from is currently indeterminable.”
Logic, reason and science tell us that:
. Matter didn't create itself
. Matter isn't infinite or eternal
. Matter came into being from literally nothing material (Big Bang Cosmology)
I guess you're hoping that these facts will change and you're willing to just sit back wait for that to happen? And in the meantime you'll be a materialist simply on faith? ( :-)
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“I don't accept this because we are still left with the question of where this being came from.”
ReplyDeleteWell, with all due respect guys, that is not the case.
. Either matter is eternal (and we know that it isn't) OR
. The Creator of matter is eternal
If you're tempted to call this a false dichotomy this would be a good place to name the other options.
As to the term eternal, for someone to ask questions like:
. When did this eternal Being begin to exist? OR
. What created this eternal Being?
is to descend into the incoherent and it shows a lack of understanding of the term eternal. The infinite does not exist outside of mathematical concepts and the material infinite does not exist – period!
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“If one's explanation of that is that it always existed, then why not save a step and just say matter/energy always existed, though maybe in a different state?”
Well, as above, the material infinite / eternal does not exist because it involves an infinite regress of cause which is not workable. For example, if I ask you, “Why A?” You reply “B” So I ask “why B?” And you say, “because C” and away we go on into infinity with no explanation of anything. If infinity exists, then in order to “know” anything, one would have to know “everything.” For example, out of all the universe, how much knowledge do you and I have? Let's be extravagant and suggest that we “know” one percent of all possible knowledge. Don't you suspect that out of the ninety-nine percent of what we don't know, there is a good probability that there is something that proves that our one percent is wrong?
So what we're left with is, either, we have to know everything in order to know anything, or we have to know Someone who does know everything and that someone is God who has revealed Himself to us, most generally through the creation of the universe. You know God exists because there is no other explanation for our existence except a Creator - Science proves it!
I think perhaps you don't understand what “nothing” means, within the context of Big Bang cosmology. Aristotle described “nothing” as “It's what rocks dream about.” Alexander Vilenkin an atheist cosmologist describes “nothing” as, “The universe had a radius of zero.”
Until the singularity there was nothing.
No quantum particles,
No energy,
Nothing!
And then there was everything and within Planck time everything was balanced and accounted for right down to the type and number of Neutrinos as were the laws of mathematics, logic and physics. If you want to insist that there was something, even a speck of energy, ask yourself, “Where was this speck of energy prior to the existence of space?”
You see, atheism / materialism stands against the evidence. It's a philosophical position that is chosen in spite of scientific knowledge.
“these are the product direct observation of the universe”
ReplyDeleteThen they wouldn't be presuppositions, because “pre” means before. You see, because the evidence does not support a material universe, One small example,
. Everything material that begins to exist has a cause that is prior to and external to the thing beginning to exist,
. The universe began to exist;
. Therefore the universe had a Cause that existed prior to and outside of itself.
The worldview of atheism stands outside of the evidence and against the evidence.
Or one other way of explaining it. Things that exist, exist for one of three possible reasons:
. It is necessary (It can't NOT exist)
. Chance
. Design
. The universe isn't necessary
. Chance doesn't DO anything
. Design is the obvious answer. The universe came into being because the Cause of the universe made a choice to bring it into existence.
Again, the world-view of atheism stands outside of the evidence and against the evidence.
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“. . . drawing rules about the universe without presuppositions.”
We don't draw the rules of the universe (mathematical, logic and science) we discover them, we discover the rules of the universe. That's what science is, a search for cause.
sooo, god existed before the universe existed (because was created by him) and therefore matter and energy can preexist, can create itself and can be infinite and eternal (unless god is not matter nor energy)
Deleteseems legit
Very thorough cosmological approach. Pitting faith against reason is a false dichotomy and only works if you distort the meaning of faith. Ted, the "faith" you are attacking is not faith but fideism, a straw-man. This article may interest you and your readers. www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-folly-of-scientism
ReplyDeleteAnon5
What is your definition of faith then? Also if I may ask, what is your religious belief? Christian? If so, which denomination? Thanks.
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